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 Hello! Bayonet identification please | Identification baïonnette

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AuteurMessage
Davidavid6
Soldat
Soldat


Nombre de messages : 9
Localisation : IL
Thème de collection : baïonnettes
Date d'inscription : 13/12/2015

MessageSujet: Hello! Bayonet identification please | Identification baïonnette   Dim 13 Déc 2015 - 0:57

Hello!
i'm sorry as im not talking french, so i will write in english. i hope i've posted the thread on the right forum (again, i'm not speaking french) Smile :
i've arrived this forum during my searches for the identification of my socket bayonet, and seen that people here have a lot of information and knowledge, as well as i beleive that my bayonet is from French or Great Britain origin.

it is a socket bayonet. i was told it is from the 1830 era and british made, but coudlnt find any good identification that fots that and looks right.

about my bayonet (See pictures for description also):

  • note the buldge in the socket base area is on the UPPER side like french models.
  • can see some really fade serial number on the right side of the spike base. it ends with 6(?) and then 3. couldnt find any more markings anywhere. the spike flat part wont say "US" as well.
  • it is not flat triangle, but have a fullered blade.

PICTURES BELOW.

after looking HERE (link), maybe it is a 1777 C.anIX Modifié 1830?

so, my questions are:

  • what is the exact model of this baoynet?
  • is the orientation of the locking ring right? from pictures over the net, im not sure so.
  • how much do they worth? i'm not planning to sell it at all but just want to know as much as possible about the pieces in my collection.
  • what is the best way to remove the rust?


THANKS A LOT!









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curly red ryder
Général d'Armée
Général d'Armée


Nombre de messages : 1953
Localisation : Bourgogne
Thème de collection : baïonnettes
Date d'inscription : 15/11/2014

MessageSujet: Re: Hello! Bayonet identification please | Identification baïonnette   Dim 13 Déc 2015 - 8:21

Hi David,

dimensions are needed: socket length, front socket bore, blade length from the front of the socket.

But at first glance I can say that it's not a French bayonet, the ricasso is too long and the ears of the ring are more squared that on the French bayonets (more rounded).

I think it could be some Germanic made bayonet in the 1810/1830 but these are the most difficult to identify for a socket of this design as no real studies of the sockets from this geographic area have been made until now.
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Davidavid6
Soldat
Soldat


Nombre de messages : 9
Localisation : IL
Thème de collection : baïonnettes
Date d'inscription : 13/12/2015

MessageSujet: Re: Hello! Bayonet identification please | Identification baïonnette   Dim 13 Déc 2015 - 18:07

Hello curly red ryder,
thanks for the answer.
i've got the following dimension, as requested:
Socket length (socket only): 6.8cm = 2.67"
blade length from the end of the socket: 46.6cm = 18.34"
total length: 53.4cm = 21.01"
front socket bore: 2.15cm = 0.84"
rear socket bore WITH slot: 2.53cm = 1"

Thanks for the answer again - and hope it will help you identify the bayonet!
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Tinky
Modérateur
Modérateur


Nombre de messages : 8220
Age : 39
Localisation : Bastogne
Thème de collection : 10th Armored Division / para et glider us ww2
Date d'inscription : 10/11/2008

MessageSujet: Re: Hello! Bayonet identification please | Identification baïonnette   Dim 13 Déc 2015 - 18:09

Hi,

Can you please make a presentation here: [Vous devez être inscrit et connecté pour voir ce lien]

Regard's,
Stef
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Tinky
Modérateur
Modérateur


Nombre de messages : 8220
Age : 39
Localisation : Bastogne
Thème de collection : 10th Armored Division / para et glider us ww2
Date d'inscription : 10/11/2008

MessageSujet: Re: Hello! Bayonet identification please | Identification baïonnette   Dim 13 Déc 2015 - 18:59

Presentation done.

Thank's,
Stef
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Davidavid6
Soldat
Soldat


Nombre de messages : 9
Localisation : IL
Thème de collection : baïonnettes
Date d'inscription : 13/12/2015

MessageSujet: Re: Hello! Bayonet identification please | Identification baïonnette   Dim 13 Déc 2015 - 19:50

TINKY a écrit:
Presentation done.

Thanks TINKY,
Stef
Thanks. i didnt knew i supposed to do so, as i've wrote - i do not speak french and could not read the forum rules.
thanks for unlocking my thread Smile

anyway, im quoting my last message with the dimensions so people will not miss it. THANKS IN ADVANCE FOR THE HELP EVERYBODY Smile
Davidavid6 a écrit:
Hello curly red ryder,
thanks for the answer.
i've got the following dimension, as requested:
Socket length (socket only): 6.8cm = 2.67"
blade length from the end of the socket: 46.6cm = 18.34"
total length: 53.4cm = 21.01"
front socket bore: 2.15cm = 0.84"
rear socket bore WITH slot: 2.53cm = 1"

Thanks for the answer again - and hope it will help you identify the bayonet!
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curly red ryder
Général d'Armée
Général d'Armée


Nombre de messages : 1953
Localisation : Bourgogne
Thème de collection : baïonnettes
Date d'inscription : 15/11/2014

MessageSujet: Re: Hello! Bayonet identification please | Identification baïonnette   Lun 14 Déc 2015 - 9:12

Hi David,

The dimensions are in the average for the French model 1822 and other countries clones. As I already said, it's definitly not a French 1822 for some weird détails and I thinh it could be of Germanic origin. But My documentation for thes countires about socket bayonets is too poor to giveyou an exact identification, several German states having used this style of bayonet plus other countires,i.e. Belgium, Switzerland, Dennmark, Russia, Italy, etc. period between 1822 to 1850.
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Davidavid6
Soldat
Soldat


Nombre de messages : 9
Localisation : IL
Thème de collection : baïonnettes
Date d'inscription : 13/12/2015

MessageSujet: Re: Hello! Bayonet identification please | Identification baïonnette   Lun 14 Déc 2015 - 16:04

So model name js P1822, ans origin country is unknown. Am i right?
Can it be Britain, maybe? Im asking as i was told so
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curly red ryder
Général d'Armée
Général d'Armée


Nombre de messages : 1953
Localisation : Bourgogne
Thème de collection : baïonnettes
Date d'inscription : 15/11/2014

MessageSujet: Re: Hello! Bayonet identification please | Identification baïonnette   Lun 14 Déc 2015 - 16:49

If I should have to give it an name I'll say "type 1722, country unknown", at least until the day I'll fing an information or document giving it's origin.

This style of bayonet was never made or used in Great Britain of Commonwealth.
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Davidavid6
Soldat
Soldat


Nombre de messages : 9
Localisation : IL
Thème de collection : baïonnettes
Date d'inscription : 13/12/2015

MessageSujet: Re: Hello! Bayonet identification please | Identification baïonnette   Lun 14 Déc 2015 - 19:15

Thanks! i appreciate that!
i forgot to ask. so in conclusion - what weapon does it fits to?
also, i see some change from "regular" 1822 models. the change is that i see there is a stop pin that prevents the ring from being attached when the ears are upwards. they are pointing to the side. here are the picture. maybe it will help to guess the origin?

"Ears" pointing left:


pin prevents to rotate much more than that. note the stoppre that prevents  "jumping" over it and aligning the ring while ears pointing upwards. they can be rotater on the upper left warter from pointing left to almost pointing up:


instead of other 1822 models which their ring is like that:


hope this helps Smile
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curly red ryder
Général d'Armée
Général d'Armée


Nombre de messages : 1953
Localisation : Bourgogne
Thème de collection : baïonnettes
Date d'inscription : 15/11/2014

MessageSujet: Re: Hello! Bayonet identification please | Identification baïonnette   Lun 14 Déc 2015 - 23:39

I think that the ring is not well mounted on the socket. The small stop stud should be on the flat (straight) part of the front of the ring and not on the slanted part. Mointed that actual way, the bridge of the ring cannot go on the front slot...

The long stop of the ring (your bottom) Arrow looks very germanic.

Sorry I cannot say more about this bayonet without knowing the stamps it can have on the shank and /or the blade ricasso.
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Davidavid6
Soldat
Soldat


Nombre de messages : 9
Localisation : IL
Thème de collection : baïonnettes
Date d'inscription : 13/12/2015

MessageSujet: Re: Hello! Bayonet identification please | Identification baïonnette   Mar 15 Déc 2015 - 0:02

curly red ryder a écrit:
I think that the ring is not well mounted on the socket. The small stop stud should be on the flat (straight) part of the front of the ring and not on the slanted part. Mointed that  actual way, the bridge of the ring cannot go on the front slot...

The long stop of the ring (your bottom) Arrow looks very germanic.

Sorry I cannot say more about this bayonet without knowing the stamps it can have on the shank and /or the blade ricasso.
changed the mounting of the ring. it looks just like you said, but the ring is not aligned when pulled all the way up. see pictures. is that the right direction?
also, those are the most close things that ive found to a manufacturer stamps. the faded serial number (maybe you can tell the origin by the font?) and something that im nut even sure that is not just a dent.
pictures attached.
thanks again for all the help!

ring alignment - is it right?


when fully pulled it is not strait with the blade direction.


fade serial number.


tiny "Q"? dent? hit?
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curly red ryder
Général d'Armée
Général d'Armée


Nombre de messages : 1953
Localisation : Bourgogne
Thème de collection : baïonnettes
Date d'inscription : 15/11/2014

MessageSujet: Re: Hello! Bayonet identification please | Identification baïonnette   Mar 15 Déc 2015 - 9:01

Hi,

the ears being not exactly faced can happen whne the ring has been re-fitted in the correct place, the curve of the ring and sometimes the éears" themselves have been slightly bent wuen unscrewing and screwing depending of the oxydation (I have one where the ring broke due to the twist of the hears when someone tried to unscrew them!).

The digits on the shank looks to have a germanic style fonts, but are not clear enough to be ascertained.
The small stamp on the other side of the shank could be either an inspector stamp (if there is a letter inside of the "circle") or and more probably the Badische property stamp.
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Davidavid6
Soldat
Soldat


Nombre de messages : 9
Localisation : IL
Thème de collection : baïonnettes
Date d'inscription : 13/12/2015

MessageSujet: Re: Hello! Bayonet identification please | Identification baïonnette   Mar 15 Déc 2015 - 13:30

curly red ryder a écrit:
Hi,

the ears being not exactly faced can happen whne the ring has been re-fitted in the correct place, the curve of the ring and sometimes the éears" themselves have been slightly bent wuen unscrewing and screwing depending of the oxydation (I have one where the ring broke due to the twist of the hears when someone tried to unscrew them!).

The digits on the shank looks to have a germanic style fonts, but are not clear enough to be ascertained.
The small stamp on the other side of the shank could be either an inspector stamp (if there is a letter inside of the "circle") or and more probably the Badische property stamp.
so we have (highly reasonable to be) a winner? Smile Baden made?

btw - how one would be able to fix the ring? or better leave it like that?
also - how do you offer to clean the bayonet from the rust without damaging it?
THANKS!
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Cathelineau
Maréchal
Maréchal


Nombre de messages : 2451
Age : 29
Localisation : France
Date d'inscription : 16/07/2012

MessageSujet: Re: Hello! Bayonet identification please | Identification baïonnette   Mar 15 Déc 2015 - 14:43

Bonjour,

A mon sens sur un forum francophone, les sous-titres seraient bienvenus...

Citation :
Le forum PassionMilitaria, n°1 en langue française dans le monde !

Cordialement.
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curly red ryder
Général d'Armée
Général d'Armée


Nombre de messages : 1953
Localisation : Bourgogne
Thème de collection : baïonnettes
Date d'inscription : 15/11/2014

MessageSujet: Re: Hello! Bayonet identification please | Identification baïonnette   Mar 15 Déc 2015 - 16:34

Désolé Cathy, je peux te prêter un dictionnaire si tu le souhaites, mais c'est de l'anglais "basique", je ne suis pas Shakespeare...

PS, dans le monde de la collection d'armes, l'anglais est nécessaire, c'est la langue que l'on trouve la plus utilisée dans les ouvrages de référence!
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Davidavid6
Soldat
Soldat


Nombre de messages : 9
Localisation : IL
Thème de collection : baïonnettes
Date d'inscription : 13/12/2015

MessageSujet: Re: Hello! Bayonet identification please | Identification baïonnette   Mar 15 Déc 2015 - 17:49

im not sure what you've said ther but if you answered me that woul be nice if it will be in english please, because i do not read french Smile
thanks you all again for the help.
Citation :
so we have (highly reasonable to be) a winner? Smile Baden made?

btw - how one would be able to fix the ring? or better leave it like that?
also - how do you offer to clean the bayonet from the rust without damaging it?
THANKS!
Revenir en haut Aller en bas
curly red ryder
Général d'Armée
Général d'Armée


Nombre de messages : 1953
Localisation : Bourgogne
Thème de collection : baïonnettes
Date d'inscription : 15/11/2014

MessageSujet: Re: Hello! Bayonet identification please | Identification baïonnette   Mar 15 Déc 2015 - 18:18

Sorry David, it was only an answer to Cathelineau

Désolé David, mais ce n'était qu'une réponse à Cathelineau....(ça te convient fiston?)
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Cathelineau
Maréchal
Maréchal


Nombre de messages : 2451
Age : 29
Localisation : France
Date d'inscription : 16/07/2012

MessageSujet: Re: Hello! Bayonet identification please | Identification baïonnette   Mar 15 Déc 2015 - 19:32

curly red ryder a écrit:
Désolé Cathy, je peux te prêter un dictionnaire si tu le souhaites, mais c'est de l'anglais "basique", je ne suis pas Shakespeare...

PS, dans le monde de la collection d'armes, l'anglais est nécessaire, c'est la langue que l'on trouve la plus utilisée dans les ouvrages de référence!

Je trouve que c'est une question de principe.
Quand je vais sur des fora anglophones je fais l'effort d'essayer de parler anglais. De même en espagnol ou en allemand où grace aux dictionnaires et traducteurs on arrive à se faire comprendre en parlant une sorte de "petit nègre". Mais on fait l'effort de s'adapter.
J'en attends autant dans l'autre sens.

"Si fueris Romae, Romano vivito more; si fueris alibi, vivito sicut ibi."

Citation :
Sorry David, it was only an answer to Cathelineau

Désolé David, mais ce n'était qu'une réponse à Cathelineau....(ça te convient fiston?)

Wink


Cordialement.
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MessageSujet: Re: Hello! Bayonet identification please | Identification baïonnette   Aujourd'hui à 19:05

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